Entirely too difficult

I have always been an advocate for an easier KT module, heck even easier DX modules back in the day, so this should come as no surprise to many of you especially Sarah. So now that I've had the time to play through most of KT as it is now, and with this fancy forum where my words can stay up for awhile, I feel I should reiterate my point:

Knights Templar is too difficult.

Now before a bunch of you jump on the "bah, I can solo it no prob!" bandwagon, please realize 2 things: 1) I'm a veteran of NWN and can solo it and hold my own with a lot of the "pro" players, and 2) I'm writing this for those who aren't "pros" and can't solo it no prob.

Through the years I have had friends of mine come on and play with me (Evil Murderer really wasn't me...at least not in the beginning, heh), and the most recent one did as all the others had before, she left vowing not to play it again. As a player on KT I have seen countless people come and go, playing a character up to 30-ish level, being a good sport, then having difficulties, leaving, and never being heard from again. Countless times.

I've had this argument many times with Sarah. He feels one way and I respect that, and this is NOT a thread aimed at attacking him or his creation, it is an opinion piece.

But I just have to express it again: It's too difficult.

More specifically, the dungeons past D8. My points being (from a solo perspective):

1) The difficulties of monsters GREATLY increases from say D9 - D16, while the items/characters MARGINALLY increase. Compare a D9 Troll to a D16 She-Devil, then compare a Shadow Cloak to a Moth Eaten cloak. All this while our characters are stuck with level 40 stats/feats/HPs/Saves all hanging in limbo. Yes, some abilities increase due to some brilliant formulas/coding by Sarah, but it still doesn't come close to comparing with the power-raising of the monsters.

2) To succeed at the higher dungeons you have to have a PERFECT build, optimally either a) the overpowered Crimson Monks, b) The straight Caster (Wiz/Cleric), c) the classic Fighter/Whatever/WM, or d) an overpowered Crimson Monk.

Anything else, then you'd better be pro or you're going nowhere.

3) You HAVE to have just the right items. Don't have rusty set or pally items or (overpowered) Crimson set? then forget about going beyond D14, Unholy will eat you alive.

I have many more, and specifics, but those 3 are my main gist.

To put it simply, to enjoy the game you have to have a restricted build with certain items.

I heartily disagree with this. If you want to play something fun that didn't come from a forum build site and couldn't care much about aquiring super items, then you will NEVER enjoy the full module.

The module is aimed at 5% of the NWN population (the "pros"), I cannot believe that this is a good thing.

I think ALL players should have a chance at going to hell (heh), to experience ALL the module has to offer...and you know that they cannot do so now. They NEVER will unless they are willing to stop playing for fun and all casual and buckle down with those specific classes, items, and investment in time.

Like I've said a million times before, so what if that 5% breeze through? It's just a game, isn't it?

So what?

Thank you for your time,
-Shal, aka WAR, aka Mythos

P.S. Sarah, the Crimson monks are overpowered.

Your comments have merit. KT is definitely a challenge, especially at the higher levels. However, to make changes, I need more specifics. What particular creatures need tweaking?

Thats just it, it ISN'T specific creatures, it's all of it. I can't single out 1 or 2 creatures that are overpowered, they all are. It's the dungeons themselves as a whole that are too difficult.

I've always been of the thought that creatures/monsters/npcs shouldn't be better than the characters themselves, that it was the environment or the specific item or the sheer tactic of multiple foes that gave difficulty to a challenge, yet time and time again we're faced with foes that are, on their own, much better than us. Higher ACs, better ABs, better skills...and its only through blowing 2 stacks of healing potions, using a boomstick/scroll, or having a friend help that we can achieve victory.

That isn't fun. Thats not winning by being better or more creative with your character, thats just slugging it out and hoping you get lucky.

IF I had to give specifics on creatures/instances, which isn't really my point but I'll play along, it would be things like:

-Making Dev. Crit a "sin" and worthless to take, yet having a Pirate Cleric doing 700+ damage in one attack with a Blade Barrier. Should 1 spell be doing that?

-The continuous overuse of Dispelling. Yes, of course Drow Wizards are going to pop em off, and of course the random boss will have a dispel trap right prior to engaging them...but Shadow Lords who do and then immediately drain you dead? Balor Lords? Damsels? Jesters? Myrmidons? And so on, and so on...its no longer an unexpected, clever tactic, now its just aggravating and everyone and their brother does it.

-The overpowered Crimson Monks who attain 100+ AC if dex based seem to be the template most of the creatures are designed to go against. Now try to achieve that kind of AC for a fighter type. You can't. Yet when you take your fighter into D14+, everything is hitting with ABs designed against 100+ ACs. The AC imbalance is frankly weird...it seemed pretty balanced out in your previous mods, yet here the armor selection has been way reduced.

-4 Vile Archers spawning on an island, each with 5 attacks at least, beginning with +103 to attack. I think the math on this one speaks for itself.

Basically, to reiterate again, which is the mod you want to run? The hardcore levels encourage one form of playing and discourages another...but which is the one thats right?

I think hardcore inadvertently eliminates the very style I feel you want, Sarah.

Is it specific builds over creativity? Is it item dependency over player tactics? Is it focused time spent on mastering, or time left to socialize/RP? Is it for a few players, or is it for everyone?

As it is now, we all know which it is.

Well, I agree with Shal on a few things. Honestly, I think everything up thru d12 is pretty fairly balanced. Even with less then optimal builds I have had a fairly decent time getting thru d12 (tho d11 can be tricky). Once you get to d13 things begin to get a little different.

* Many things in d13+ have some ridiculously high physical DR or are flat out immune to physical damage. I realize that much of your damage comes from the on hit effect of your weapons, but without causing physical damage a lot of times you have to have just the right weapon at all times. Many of the better weapons can't be improved (read any that have magic, positive, negative or divine damage on hit effects) so a lot of my characters are carrying 4-5 weapons of varying degrees of enhancement bonus/on hit levels which is fine for high strength characters but can get annoying for dex based characters who already have issues with carrying capacity.

* Honestly, in d13 I dont even bother fighting the clerics. Their spells cause massive damage, are hard to resist and they constantly heal themselves. While I think this is a fair tactic for clerics, it is bothersome and they make me waste a lot of time and resources usually for very little reward. Their AC seems to be very high, and even in melee they are fairly competent fighters if you manage to make it thru the spell onslaught.

* d14 is practically impossible without the right build. The evil dead cause pretty substantial acid or negative damage. Even potions of elemental protection, spells and resistance tend to not reduce it effectively. The Shadow Lords are crazy..I hate hate hate the dispel/drain trick they do. With no items that give immunity to negative level/ability decrease, that attack sequence is nasty. Everything else in d14 seems ok. I love the exploding kids

* d15 is tough. High AC/DR monsters all around. Drow myrmidon is obnoxious..dispel/acid sheath/missile storm ad naseum. Drow High Priestess starts battle with implosion so hope you have something that gives immunity to it because not too many people ar emaking the save vs DC 54 (I think). I had to break down on my barbarian and buy an implosion immunity ring then sneak around and as soon as I see one try to quickly switch to the ring since even with my 40'ish save there was a good chance I was dying to it. Succubus Queen is insane. Warmaster devestating critical feat (DC 55 to resist!!!) is lame. Without fairly optimal items, you will not live in d15 for long.

*d16 What can i say. My barbarian made it to about halfway around the first screen. Nuff said.

Shal is correct that in order to get to the last areas, you need to have the best equipment but from lvl 40-60 there does seem to be a drop off in quality items for all of the classes. You will also need a fairly optimized build. I don't know if you should reward players for making terrible choices (hey this resist disease feat is nifty!) but I think you should be able to make a less optimal build and still have an ok survival chance in the highest areas. I do ok as an experienced player but I am pretty sure the newer folks probably have a harder time in some places.

I still love it so please dont take these as personal criticisms, just some observations. I know a lot of time goes into all this so I do appreciate it. If there is anything I can elaborate on, let me know!

Nuli

This is how it works in higher dungeons. The more damage you deal the better chance of you to survive is. The quicker you kill the better chance of surviving you have.

There is one thing you have to look at and that is Resistances. Unless you have packed resistances of at least 40 +/- you aren't going to survive d14+ with so many monsters there. Well you could just stack up on healing potions and struggle and hope you will be fighting monsters 1 on 1.

If you get Knocked down, you're pretty much dead in higher dungeons:), funny that monsters have such huge AB yet there's no items with + discipline at least for str based toons so they had chance to resist it. Dexers don't really have to have items with + discipline as they rely more on AC (if it was balanced out and they could have higher AC).

AC doesn't mean a thing unless you're pure monk wearing crimson set. Bye bye dexers, i stopped playing them coz it was pointless... I kept asking why is it that str based chars have as high AC as dexers do (+15heavy armor and +9 shields, +6 robes, +wis modifier).

Everything's doing too much/high damage, including players. I've mentioned it long time ago that it's too high with on hit lvl25 (avg. 110 damage/5 attacks per round= 550 damage from just elemental damage in a round). Hello here, bye bye making critical hits useless especially with monsters immune to physical damage in higher dungeons. Yeah i already said all that long time ago, but was ignored

Being this said, Casters pack so much damage from spells as well to balance it with damage from on hit on weapons. (BB dealing 900 damage on first hit, Issacs 110 avg on single missile with the right feat and other spells).

Casters like wiz/sorc having low health, walking around in this environment with so much damage from on hit have to have such powerful summons + resists to even survive.

You must have AB of at least 62 to have a chance against like pirate cleric/ drow pirestess. TO survive Blade barrier what you have to do is start running when you see BB is being casted. lol That's the easiest way. Either that or use spell mantle scrolls or charge in really really fast, before they can cast spell resistance with Silence spell ( remember not to attack with sonic weapon if you use silence spell because it gives 100% sonic immunity in exchange for not being able to cast spells). Well silence aura is quickly dispelled by the likes that use Mordenkainen's disjunction.

That's pretty much how you make impossible being possible on KT. Well like Shal said, d14+ are hard and without proper equipment and technique you are sure to struggle through it, but it is do-able. I left out d13 not hard because everything except pirate clerics is a joke. all you need is +30 physical resists and ring of magic resistances (+30) and it's a walk in a park.

Quote :

Druids/Shapeshifers are useless and unfavored classes because items don't merge while in shapeshift form (dragon shape only deals about 30 physical damage, making it deal no damage starting like d10) Well pretty much any shape that doesn't use no weapon. Druid spells aren't improved like clerics/wiz/sorc. Shapeshifters hurt teamates as well as druid spells

Quoted it because i don't think it's been ever said. Well i think there's been like 1 or 2 pots about shapeshifters but that's it.

Here are my 2 pennies in the pot on Crimson monk.
The success on KT is highly dependent on obtaining the right set items for the build. It is probably the distinct charactistic of the mod from DX2 through the current iteration of KT. I have no complaint as long as you know this fact and start collecting set items early on and trade as needed. Being aware this fact, any new player should start by building a crimson monk, who gets a FULL SET at level 1. With this set, the monk can pretty much breeze through level 60 and collect set items along the course. The monk can easily see dungeons 1-13. I agree that the leveling of the crimson monk is easier relative to the other classes. However, the challenge starts from d14 on and gets greater progressively. The monk needs a balanced party to go to d16 if the Crimson set is all he has. Even when fully equipped, the monk will still have difficulty going through d16, let alone beating Vile King; hence, the power of a Crimson monk is on par with fully equipped characters of other classes, such as barbarian, paladine, or wizard. Keep in mind that the Crimson set has no DR, the monk can't handle monsters with high AB such as fallen angel or Vile King alone. Therefore, I'd say that a Crimon monk is highly empowered rather than overpowered in high dungeons, and maybe a bit overpowered in the level-up process.

Comments on KT far east module:
There is a big difference between the current module and the previous iterations. The previous versions are more or less designed for solo ventures, and players measure success by being able to solo high dungeons. The current version is more friendly for balanced parties that consists a minimum of one caster and one melee character. I agree with Nuli that d1 though d12 are soloable, with the exception, probably for d11 (in Nuli's word "tricky'. More on d11 at the end). My understanding is that the high dungeons are particularly designed for parties. Take the cleric in d13 for example, a melee character will have difficulty hitting him. Sarah warned about the high AC of the cleric when he scaled the magic vestment and shield of faith spells. But if there is a mage to dispel and strip him of the buff, the cleric is much less powerful and can be quickly killed by a melee character in teh party. The same is true for priestesses in d15. Similar party tactics apply to myridon and high wizard in d15. For elite shadow, just keep in mind that it dispels and it drains. So don't attempt to rush and fight it. Let it dispel you at a distance so you have time to use negative energy protection potion before it can hit you. You are safe after that since the shadow does not do much damage otherwise.

Back to d11, the muck raiders/refuse marauders are a bit overpowering with the overspawn, big elemental damage, and frequent crit (they use scim). After beating these creatures, the blob appears underpowered and a bit disappointing.

Comments on builds:
I have to concur with what Shal, GPharaoh and Abriy have said that the builds that can succeed in the module are limited (actually AA is a good build also in this mod, an improvement over KT-USA). It will bring a lot more fun to the players and make the server more enduring if all classes/builds are given a chance to succeed. I am not arguing good/evil of classes, because I believe a character can only be as good or evil as the player with respect to his action on other players and the server.

The normal classes and their variations are mostly successful. The area that I'd like to see changes are the prestige classes much as GPharaoh and Abriy have pointed out. Let the weapons pass through polymorph like in KT-USA should fix the difficiency in the shifter class. Let Pale Master (PM) have mummy dust summon having the same progression as sorc/wiz ending with the Ancient One should fix the PM class (16 levels in class is reasonable since Black Guards get the best summon in 16 levels). Shadow dancer should have Epic Shadow Lord on par with the Succubus in terms of melee capability (I made a 20 monk 20 shadow dancer. At level 60 with d16 key, the epic summon is a 20level undead 20level black guard wielding a +5 weapon with low ac and ab, essencially useless)

Thanks for the comments.

I play the dungeons myself using only loot that's found in normal play. I agree some things are very difficult. You aren't required to fight something you cannot kill. I evade the Shadow Lords or charge them. As soon as they dispel, I drink a potion to regain ability drain immunity. After that, they are cake.

I do think BB is overpowered, and the saves are too high. I could also tone down damage a bit. However, D13-D16 are meant to be a challenge (everything less than that is easy IMO). The dungeons are designed to require careful play. There are techniques to get through most challenges. For example, the Drow Priestesses are easily killed in a few rounds of melee. All you have to do is survive the implosion, which there's an immunity ring for (complete immunity...no chance whatsoever of them killing you).

Quote :

However, D13-D16 are meant to be a challenge (everything less than that is easy IMO).

That would be one of the issues I've been trying to point out though, that the difficulty is set by one persons opinion. Yes, that one person being the creator and the one whose invested his own time, money, patience, etc... and I don't disparage that. What I'm getting at is basically that if you create something and invite the public to participate, do you not have a responsibility (NWN ethically speaking, heh) to cater it to said public? I mean, if you like it one way, then by all means, play it on your home computer solo (NO DON'T! This is an example.). Yes, we can all "play it your way, or else feel free to leave", but I am desperately trying to avoid the server becoming a ghost town.

We've lost easily 50 times more people then we've kept, due to one simple reason: It's too difficult. And while you've managed to keep it still as tough as ever (some areas actually tougher than before), has it been worth it?

Quote :

The dungeons are designed to require careful play. There are techniques to get through most challenges.

Again, the techniques are too specific, too "one way only to survive" to be that much fun in the end. Why can there not be multiple techniques?

Since stumbling upon the Davids Set so long ago, I've always wanted to make a slinger and invest feats/money into focusing on that...but really, why bother when only a monk, straight wizard, or Fighter/RDD is going to go far and really have the tools to take down the big bads?

I've tried multiple ways to be creative with character builds...making monks that take Improved SR feats multiple times to have a kick butt SR, only to see that it counts for nothing against Auto-Dispels, Bats out of Hell, and INSANE DCs to implosions and what not. So of course those feats now go into toughness and I rely on items to save me. Speaking of which....

Quote :

For example, the Drow Priestesses are easily killed in a few rounds of melee. All you have to do is survive the implosion, which there's an immunity ring for (complete immunity...no chance whatsoever of them killing you).

Like I said...character creativity/strategy goes out the window. Here's an Item you have to have to combat the high DCs, as there's no other sure fire way to avoid it (all my high level characters just wear them continuously now, as switching out is a pain when I accidentally forget).

Why not just lower the DCs? People might actually have to decide when building their character where to put feats/stats, have strengths/weaknesses, instead of what we all do now: Throw down everything on AB and AC, and just use an item to shore up the immunities.

I say again, we've lost too many people, and its such a shame. Contrary to what you may think, I have always loved this module more than any game I've EVER played. There are so many brilliant, inventive, and original aspects to it that it still sometimes makes me sit back and go "whoa".

I've gotten to enjoy most everything because I'm of a sort like Nuli, Rom, GP, Dark, et. al because we're too stubborn and obsessed to leave when beaten down by Drow Myrmidons 18 times in a row. Too many people aren't, and we're losing them.

I don't feel (and many I believe agree with me) that the module has to be difficult or super challenging to be enjoyable. As a wise player once said to me: "Sometimes harder is just harder."

Thanks to all for chiming in, and thanks more to you, Sarah, for everything.

I'll see what I can do to lighten up on the saving throws. That's the worst issue IMO. Even BB isn't that crazy if someone has a 75-90% of saving/evading it, right?

What's everyone else think?

The thing is, i don't like players having such insanely high Saves without them having to sacrifice something in exchange. Like Barb with rage, items, hitting 70 Saves and they aren't even pally/bg with Cha modifier going to saves. It might just be me because spells requiring saves won't work on such players and if i was to attack someone i would be left to use spells that don't require DC.

Sarah the DM wrote:

Even BB isn't that crazy if someone has a 75-90% of saving/evading it, right?

Wrong. Because with the damage that's done, there's still that chance of failing the one saving throw and dieing. 684 damage on a failed save, even WITH 50 slashing resistance, will always kill casters with 480-560 BUFFED HP.

And compared to other, and in this case, higher level damage spells like Incendiary Cloud (level , it's horrendously overpowered.

IC was lowered so much that, as a level 60 wizard, pure caster, it does 17-22 damage per target per round.

Even Cloudkill at level 4 does more.


And sunbeam, as a AoE spell is disgusting. It'll do decent damage to the target monster, but every other monster takes 4-6 divine damage.

GPharaoh wrote:

The thing is, i don't like players having such insanely high Saves without them having to sacrifice something in exchange. Like Barb with rage, items, hitting 70 Saves and they aren't even pally/bg with Cha modifier going to saves. It might just be me because spells requiring saves won't work on such players and if i was to attack someone i would be left to use spells that don't require DC.

That's false. They can't do that. The character sheet will lie to you about saves just as it lies to you about AB.


*edit* and Ball lightning doesn't work with Lightning Stones as advertised. Chain lightning did.

Meteor Storm still doesn't work with a Fire Stone.

Abriymoch wrote:

GPharaoh wrote:

The thing is, i don't like players having such insanely high Saves without them having to sacrifice something in exchange. Like Barb with rage, items, hitting 70 Saves and they aren't even pally/bg with Cha modifier going to saves. It might just be me because spells requiring saves won't work on such players and if i was to attack someone i would be left to use spells that don't require DC.

That's false. They can't do that. The character sheet will lie to you about saves just as it lies to you about AB.


*edit* and Ball lightning doesn't work with Lightning Stones as advertised. Chain lightning did.

Meteor Storm still doesn't work with a Fire Stone.

I am not talking about char sheet saves... If I remember correctly, barb's rage gives saves vs spells like spellcraft skill does which aren't shown on char sheet. Well, anyways, i don't think char sheet lies about saves.

If BB kills you on a failed save, please explain how that's different from the numerous other spells that cause immediate death? In other words, sometimes you SHOULD die if you fail to save. Otherwise, all spells are pretty much survivable. Now maybe that saving throw should be pretty easy to make, but it kind of ruins the point if you can survive everything even when you fail to save.

GPharaoh wrote:

Well, anyways, i don't think char sheet lies about saves.

You are such an arrogant ass; always believing you're right and infallible.

Go test it for yourself, then, if you don't believe me.

Abriymoch wrote:

GPharaoh wrote:

Well, anyways, i don't think char sheet lies about saves.

You are such an arrogant ass; always believing you're right and infallible.

Go test it for yourself, then, if you don't believe me.

You're the arrogant one kid.

I don't need to go test it just because you've said so. Just because saves vs spells from spellcraft don't show on a char sheet doesn't mean it lies about saves. AS a matter of fact I know Sarah made rage increase barbs saves which works against spells only.

And you fail to realize that that still falls within the +20 cap for saves, even though it doesn't show up on the character sheet.

Saves vs. Spells, whether via scripts, items, or spellcraft DO fall within the +20 cap, GPharaoh.

Maybe take your head out of your ass long enough to test it like he suggested?

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Saving_throw

Quote:
* A cap of +20 exists on saving throws increased (directly) by means of magical equipment, spells, or spell-like feats. Some (non-spell-like) feats — iron will, divine grace, and dark blessing — do not count towards this cap, while others — arcane defense and sacred defense — do. Indirect bonuses, such as from increasing the relevant ability, do not count towards this cap.

[quote="Sarah the DM"]If BB kills you on a failed save, please explain how that's different from the numerous other spells that cause immediate death? In other words, sometimes you SHOULD die if you fail to save. Otherwise, all spells are pretty much survivable. Now maybe that saving throw should be pretty easy to make, but it kind of ruins the point if you can survive everything even when you fail to save.[/quote]

Don't feel that should be the way with spells that damage you over time.

Death spells, yes.

But not with spells that are meant to bring you down to low/hp or kill you over time.

werehound wrote:

Saves vs. Spells, whether via scripts, items, or spellcraft DO fall within the +20 cap, GPharaoh

i never said i didn't know they don't fall in +20 cap. Show me where i said saves don't fall within +20 cap?

Do you even realize how much +20 saves help barbs getting them for free?? You know what? let's do bard's song add +50 to skills and see what you got to say about that huh?

I just threw number 70 (after DC roll i meant it) as in sky high saves if you know what I mean.

werehound wrote:

Don't feel that should be the way with spells that damage you over time.

Death spells, yes.

But not with spells that are meant to bring you down to low/hp or kill you over time.

I know what you mean... and I feel the same way... Well Sarah has made Undeath to death useless already because once a monster successfully rolls against it, It is affected by it no more. My wizard that has focused in spell school: necromancy doesn't use that spell anymore because it's just a waste of spell slot really

You said you don't believe the character sheet lies, when it does, JUST like AB.

And having Bard Song add +50 to all skills wouldn't boost saves vs spells from spellcraft past that +20 cap.

Abriymoch wrote:

You said you don't believe the character sheet lies, when it does, JUST like AB.

And having Bard Song add +50 to all skills wouldn't boost saves vs spells from spellcraft past that +20 cap.

char sheet doesn't lie about saves, unless you count that the char sheet doesn't show saves from items/spellcraft/ than yeah it does lie about saves.

I know bard Song wouldn't add saves vs spells past the +20 cap but spellcraft isn't the only skill. I am talking about, discipline, concentration, pick pocket, open lock, appraise, the ones that are used in every minute situation.

Anyways, I have checked barb's rage with Nuli, and it's confirmed that barb's rage doesn't add a lot of saves anymore so it must've been fixed when i wasn't playing, or during the last days i was around.

I never base my opinions on char sheet, I always use my combat log and what i observe in it. The only thing i look on char sheet is my AC and that's all.

LOL it does too lie about saves.

Build a CoT, and wear some save gear.


Your character sheet will tell you that you have saves 65+, when in reality they are only around 40-45.